Here's an idea...
how about if you need the work,
go to the school, take the interview and ask for what you think you're worth.
Try selling yourself in the interview...I bet the majority of people on here bitching couldn't even do that. I think, sorry, GUARENTEE that the majority of the foreigners teaching for a living here suck at it and parents should be reimbursed.
For those who could sell themselves, if they flat out refuse, then simple tell them that no one will work for that. Bitchin on KB to other foreigners isn't going to get all these "businesses" to higher wages. Korean teachers are all in the same boat...teaching wages suck....
actually I take that back...wages for all the unqualified 'I can speak english, gimme mo money' foreigners here are making good money considering.
Here's a second idea...
maybe I'm living in a fairytale, but instead of complaining that wages suck, how about we form a community to improve teaching quality...I'd imagine if teaching got better then pay would also.
'' I think, sorry, GUARENTEE that the majority of the foreigners teaching for a living here suck at it and parents should be reimbursed.''
Did you ever ask yourself why the bar is set low here to teach in korea ? because if it was higher who would come? do koreans actually expect Ivy league people to come here because korea has four seasons? and make the equivalent of an expense account of many jobs back home?
Take the kind of abuse that we foreigners deal with day in and day out. I'm going even lower here to my roots(blue collar). Who would come here for the equivalent of an unemployment check and work 5days a week sometimes 6 when a person back home can ride the pogie(upstate new york and canadas slang for unemployment) for now upto 99weeks or some nonsense.
I'd like to say something right now to all teachers, from university to the crappiest hogwan in the shittiest dong, if you are here in Korea right now, I salute you! We get shat on in the media, yearly witch-hunts, I could go on and on. Even if you are wanker who just plays bingo everyday and doesn't teach a thing other than hoping the kids like you that's good enough for me. Why? because we are hindered at each and every step of trying to do the right thing and most just abandon the idea because it is futile to try and change their archaic system.
Koreans are lucky to have us here, even the greenhorns with no experience fresh out of college are too good for this place. Koreans deep down know this place is no Japan and their fly-by-night reputation is deserving. What gets me is they complain about the gene pool of teachers but won't up the ante. You tell them peanuts gets you monkeys but for them it will always be the lowest price teacher and that's not the way things work.
No, koreans get exactly what they deserve in the English education scheme here. Good night.
Is it possible that some of us have lowered the standard of performance, as far as F2 holders go? As I am an F2 as well, this is in no way a shot.
But, I've found, through my recruiting work, that many schools will not hire F2's and exclusively E2's. Whether that be in order to hold control of that teacher or what it is, I'm not sure. I've also found the majority of schools that I place for, especially in Seoul and other large metropolises, schools want as young a teacher as possible. Not all, but most F2 holders are in their 30's or higher, right? I'm 31 myself.
For full-time positions that I've held as an F2 holder, I was always given a housing/transportation allowance. The last 'Hagwon' that I worked for full-time, which was around 07-08, I was paid 20K per hour for 120 hours, plus a 400K housing/transportation allowance. The only deductions were the necessary 3.3% or whatever it was. This plus my other freelance work, it was actually a pretty good living. I would never have been able to make that for that little of work in the States.
If there are such strong feelings regarding wages, have you ever considered in taking steps to form a union...legally and officially? I'd be interested in anything that would make the standard of life better for me...I've just pretty much conformed to what it is. I do know that in Seoul, F2s can make up to 100K per hour doing privates. Most part time positions pay 30-40K per hour. It could possibly be the economy and the geographic elements coming into the picture as well.
Busan guy-I teach university and love it. I do have my lessons planned for every class there and so on but students there are young adults and actually can take direction but a hagwon, please! My point about hogwans is in 7 years I have seen one kid kicked out for whatever reason. Most will quit if you are too harsh with them and then you are in trouble for it. You are the scapegoat for unhappy kids. You can lose your job if this happens yet all you were doing was 'teaching' well. Shit, back in the day imagine you acted like some of the kids do here. You would be shot on sight. Here they are coddled outside and loved because they are money. Then, when the parent phones to complain you are told to settle down-even though you have just now taught the kid they can do whatever they want. So you stop to care and the teaching sucks. I think most come here and try but the hagwon biz is all BS so why bother. The onus is on the school to create the atmosphere for teaching but let's be honest, most do not do that because it is about the money and not the teaching.
To go further, day after day, year after year, people get screwed for one reason or another and this never ends. The idea people need to work harder at hagwons is crazy. Minimum wage has almost doubled in the last 7 years while our wages have-factoring in inflation, have actually gone down; but you think if Korea had better teachers that would help with wages? Really??? Come on!
Anyway, I made your point busan guy? No, I do not think so. I could type forever but if you think getting better teachers here will improve wages I will just suggest you are trying too hard. Enjoy the kids busan guy. I love that you are so idealistic-I really do, but that never changes anything, sadly. It really is up the whole hagwon biz gong show to lead the way but I have not see it. Have you?
Well these hogwans can go ahead and hire all the E visa cast of dawson's creek they want because it just reenforces the fact that they care not about education so why should anyone who works for them? This is purely edutainment . F visas must really scare hogwan owners seeing we hold all the cards and their practices won't work on us.
There are universities and colleges now that ONLY hire F visa people. This isn't because they can ship them out, I'm not shipped out nor have I ever been. It's because they think someone who is married is more stable than someone who isn't. I disagree wholeheartedly but I'm not an employer. Also they get grands and subsidies according to visas and I'm thinking F is a good one for gravy train funds. We cost schools very little if anything.
Another thing, people seem to think immigration is open to this idea of 2nd jobs. They aren't, it's extra paperwork for them and for what purpose? none for them. It isn't easy and no they don't all ways allow it. These after school jobs have switched from many univerisites doing them to some hogwan chain. People I know made 40k+travel fee and all of a sudden they were asked to work for 25k. They told them to stick it, rightfully so this isn't Wisconsin.
Here Here, totally agree with you.
I strive EVERYDAY to teach these stupid bastards, they always same "game" and dont listen. The issue is they fly us over here to be entertainers at best, teacher is the korean name for entertaining white person.
Point and Case....
Thanks Paul for proving my point.
Wages are low because you just entertain kids.
If kids are out of control...maybe you shouldnt be teaching kids because you lack class control. Kids aren't interested because you're not interesting. You probably shouldn't reproduce as your children would be a burden on all societies as they will have been raised irresponsibly.
If you want to start an English Teacher Revolution and improve wages and conditions...how about we all start setting an example instead of bitchin.
I bet the same people bitchin about wages are the same people who can't speak any Korean and get upset with Koreans that don't speak English even though you're in Korea.
This wasn't aimed at Paul but the kind of "teachers" Paul is defending.
P-ul the "Preacher of Pusan" and I rarely agree about anything.
Th-rpy the rascal, harps on about entertaining all of the time, because he is one himself, or was one back in LA before here . Now, he gets to entertain a trapped audience (lol).
L-S , another naughty lad insinuates that you don't need to teach, or plan at his job, just turn up in an Audi(lol).
I think you have a point about quality teaching Busan Guy.The "reproducing" comment is a bit harsh mate.Let's not get too arrogant, nasty, esp. with the criticism of guys who may have legitimate gripes.(snigger, snigger)
We are basically paid clowns. Even at the university. I know it sounds cynical but it is the truth... here's the deal at unis: You LIVE AND DIE by your end of semester student evals. If you are Mr. Hardass tough love teacher, or if you give them too much work and set the bar too high, you will get crucified by them and probably be shown the door. If you just come in every day, have fun, make 'em laugh, and make it EASY on them, then tey will rain down praise upon your name and yet another easy contract will be thrown your way. I've been here coming on 7 years and see it work out this way all the time.
This is the essence of teaching in Korea and anyone who thinks that we're over here to seriously teach should probably look into a different line of work.
I'm happy if you are happy. Dawson's creek, the Twilight series crew, even the cast of the new Star Trek. People so white they reflect sunlight.
I'm with you tharpster, give the students what they want. The saying squeaky wheel gets the grease well in korea the squeaky wheels gets replaced. Those who shit where they eat and teach like it's 1999 get sent packing while i scathe through year in and year out.
I couldn't teach to save my life. I've been here 15+ years and I only have about 10decent lessons and those require cheesy suppliments but guess what? They work. That's all i really need for a semester lasting 15weeks(mids,finals,sports week,bullshit week and 10actual lessons).The university kids like them. I'm all ways in the top 10-15% at evaluation time, it isn't a coincidence or a fluke not after all of these years.
angel, who are you? no, i am not leaving. i love my job!
i make sure i am ready for class and so on but i agree with tharp and lbs in that if you teach to hard you are gone and not enough sadly, you may be better off when it comes to evaluations. in my 5 classes over the last week i asked my students 3 questions in confidence meaning i dont know who said what. it went like this.
1) do you like enlgish? average score was 25 yes and 5 no
2) do you want homework? 28 no and 2 yes
3) do you want a serious class? 28 no 2 yes
so most even at the uni level really do not care. they are being forced to study. does this mean do not do my/your job? hell no! i plan all 16 weeks up front and am ready to go but do i kill them with homework and grammar-no way. i try but the reality is in a mandatory class with students who speak almost zero english, do you think il get paid more if i teach better? i am not sure that i could. i teach everyday. i have them doing work everyday but we do live and die by evaluations-or if you are in a hagwon, by the parents who phone in. wages in no way are tied to being a real teacher or even a good one. it is about being popular. if my evaulations are good i have a job. if they are not i am out. so this idea that if we had better teachers here we would get paid more is crazy. if people keep posting jobs for schools at 25 an hour this will affect jobs more than anything. people taking these jobs will as well. i try but the reality is it is not our skill that keeps us a live-well, actually, that is not true. our socials skills do keep us going but that is a different type of education.
I have to agree with paul,lbs and tharp. it was edutainment in '98 and it still is. precisely why i finally gave up on it and left, now i get to live in a tropical expat-friendly land giving public school teachers the know how on making their classes more fun. I don't bring work home. and i get to enjoy the kuala lumpr skyline while sipping a brew or having a hooka.
happy thoughts to all you's peoples in the ROK. i never kid myself, i wasn't a teacher, and korea was good and bad to/for me throughout my time served. for all my employers it wasn't quality they wanted, just qantity.
period point blank
I'm not saying that nothing productive can happen in a classroom. I am a very energetic and even passionate teacher at times, but the truth is I've always been thrown into teaching situations in Korea with no training whatsoever. I was only in the country for just twelve hours when handed a book and pushed into my first hagwon class. My first uni gig was the same. I was given a crappy book and a CD player and shown a roomful of 50 half-dead college freshman with the energy and drive of a pile of driftwood.
Am I a good teacher? I think at times I am - I'm good at holding a room, but that has more to do with the fact that I'm a big actor-y ham sandwich than any real teaching ability. Perhaps if I was actually trained in my field I'd be better at it (thinking about getting that CELTA at least), but the reality is that I don't really need it to teach in Korea and I know perfectly well what works here. It is about evals, for better or worse, but that is just the reality of the gig.
I address all of this in my upcoming book which I'm sure everyone will be gagging to buy ;)
You don't need CELTA tharpster you are personable and you have the gift. It something you can't learn you either have it or you don't. You've been in the trenches now for a few years and that's better than anything a course can teach you.
Most of the stuff taught in those classes is ivory tower nonsense that you have complete control of the class and everyone is there to learn. Ok...let's talk about reality. Things like; half dead freshmen, the fact that it's required course and not an elective.,how about the classtime is Friday night at 7pm or Monday 8am?
These are the things which we have little to no control over and can make or break a class no matter if I shot fire balls out of my ass it wouldn't get a rise out of the students. The best structured prepared class goes out the window when some retard says 'teacha tired go home' it kills it dead in it's tracks. For younger kids it would be 'teacha gay-im!' During a course like CELTA these important factors are ignored completely.
If you want to get a few pointers of whatever out of the course and a good resume padder than so be it. In my opinion those who can't... teach, but those who really can't teach CELTA. Some of these so called experts wouldn't last a week here in Korea.
as for stereotyping angel, to a degree you are right but this thread was about part time pay and f2 visas so i'll stop here.
as for the leaving part-i did say that but more in regards to this site...lol i agree, people can disagree but still be respectful. cheers.
im done with this post. all i can think about it kemp sitting in KL drinking tropical drinks. i do not want to read anything like that again. cheers and may good pay be with you!
' we do need one who are so experienced, talented and passionate'
a quote from a new part time job on line going for 22 per class. who do they expect top get at that wage? back to being a good teacher and getting paid more-whatever! you will get what you are paying for.
sadly, someone will take it so next time this school will advertise again for 22 per class-even though previously on this thread i broke down pay for jobs and the average pay for FT jobs works out to about 25 per class. so it will just never end. i have always posted about low pay even though i do not work pt jobs in hagwons because i used to but even 7 years ago i never worked for 22 per class. i just hope for those working pt jobs this changes for you soon. cheers!
Classic sign of a poor teacher? God I hope so, thank you for that.
We just got rid of the last 'teacher' at our university. He had about 5semesters in a row of low rankings and that was enough to let him go before March contracts of this year.
Also, I'm not knocking education, I think bettering oneself is wonderful and noble but...if you are just going to stay here and bang out the same class 7times a week and teach children private wise on the saide what is the point?
We are in the trenches, that is never going to change with a CELTA, Ma in Ling. any MA or PhD for that matter in any discipline.
I agree with that.
Otherwise, your 5 semester pal was obviously a poor teacher too.Why do you guys have such negative of teachers? Were you picked on, victims of teachers in school? Really weird, were you a nerd? To hate teachers, is to hate yourself.Your stereotyping of the teacher is so sad.There are many good teachers here. They don't all reside in Unis.
Angel, no he was a decent teacher, very competent, well organized and dedicated but that's the problem. He taught himself right out of a job.
He pushed kids too hard and blew his top on numerous occasions. That's a giant no no. Let's be honest, colleges here are degree mills where you simply have to wait two- four years until you get the papers you need. It's a place where kids gain contacts and have a couple decent years off before embark on the rest of their lives.
I was never picked on in school, I was popular, usually on the honor roll and was elected valedictorian. I had great relationships with my teachers. You are comparing apples to oranges though as education here is about as close as earth's distance to Uranus (the cellestial body not the body part).
25k an hour is the pay scale for a bad teacher and a bad entertainer. But few of you deserve even that. Most 'English teachers' are only in Korea because they are white. I would be ashamed if I knew that I only had a job because of my skin color.
Even those who are now married to a Korean, you don't deserve great reward for that. You also only came here because of your skin color in the first place.
wow! really? to be fair? you get in at 230 let's say and leave at 5:05 when done. that is, 2hours and 35 minutes you are there and you get paid 66 000WON. then you still have to go home. you are going to waste your day for that? this is onlyaround 25 per hour man-not factoring in travel time/costs. not good to be fair! why are you saying this is okay money? ft workers get paid this and they live right beside their schools. lame job.
there are worse though to be fair. like when foreigners who go on vacation put jobs on here for like 100 day-for 6 hours of work. they take 2mil (who still gets paid this) and divide by 20 (work days in a month) and get 100. so you work for their pension, bonus, airfare, housing when you take these jobs-while they are on vacation. nice!
If you do a full time job for a package of less than 3.2 million a month including insurance, pension, housing, airfare , and severance you are a moron.
Don't forget, Kimmi just opened up job restrictions on immigrant F-2's so they are swiping up any lowball haggie jobs which they are happy to do.
A reason why I'm in the PS game at 2.5.
"Kimmi just opened up job restrictions on immigrant F-2's"
What are you talking about?
Kimmi- is Korean Immigration, I guess. I think, this person has been misinformed.This is not an E2 vs F2 price argument.Maybe, the person was talking about the new visa available.Present E2 restrictions remain the same.
However, there is an old F2 visa has been adjusted to F-2-1.It's funny, how many deluded people are doing voluntary and language courses,etc, to get the F-2-1 visa. I believe,the motivation is skewed and wrong.Korea needs to bring people here to solve their population timebomb.This is not an act to benefit the waykook labour market here, but a control exercise in regulating supply.To me, a somewhat cynical exercise to remove any remaining elements of sinecure or enjoyment ,that may exist in our jobs.
My fear, is that they(some dubious types) only want this visa so they can do privates, etc, legally. Their motivation being money over society, it seems.It'll becoming to an end soon when there's no work. Trying to be too greedy and too clever, only pays a minute few. I haven't met any Gordon Gekkos recenlty. I've encounterred lots of wannabes, just Gordon Gonna Get Rich type dreamers.Yeah, enjoy your future life in Hakwondom, where bosses are called kings already.
Similarly, there is a surplus of coffee shops and hakwons here. The immigration logic is to create more F-2-1 visas, to create a surplus of labour.This will reduce our chances of making money long term.It seems to be a positive thing on the surface.Sadly, I think, the motivation behind it is dubious, at best. When there is a surplus of teachers with F visas, they'll kill the school jobs and it's back to hakwons.How many Hakwons will be around by then? Then, they'll say you need to have higher qualifications. Yet, the industry remains a major earner for the Government.Sadly, the demand for Hakwons is being undermined by low quality operations, privates, public schools and "shady" and unlicensed, home operators.Good luck with getting the F-2-1s, by the time you get them, will there be any jobs worth doing???
I reckon, many of these machiavellian "F-2-1" types will leave when they've taken their fill( I bet), and left a bone carcass behind.They don't care about this country at all.Their motto seems to be "reap and rape" because "" I""" deserve it, rather than invest and grow.I hear them talking about it all the time, as if it was a "divine right","their mandate from heaven."With so many micro Kings around, "Qu'il mangent de la brioche!"Actually, will there be any bread, or just crumbs left?????Yes, it's a concern.Chinese will be the new English soon.
Competition is good in a free market and "laissez- faire' economy, but the game's rigged in their favour.This is why salaries are the same as in 2000, new graduates earn more then you.Why can't you study, or earn and learn, do your masters, whilst working at a University? Why is there little, or no support for waykook teachers? What happened to the "Lifelong Learning" philosophy? Haven't Koreans taken advantage of these very policies in our countries? Why don't they make them available to us?These are the questions you should be asking?
When they talk about Global Standards, then imposing immersion, and equality- it makes me cry. They have got to understand that you have to share, you can't take the ball away when the rules are fair to all.You don't take it away, when you're no longer the only player."Share the ball and let us walk tall."Ultimately, you need economic migrants Korea, so why not help make them more effective.Just giving out visas is a step , but only a half-hearted step.Time is a passing , tick- tock.Wake up.
(my opinion- excuse the rant)
I think Angel means "F5" visa due to his remarks regarding studying Korean.
I'm not exactly sure but I think in theory you can apply for an F5 if you've been here for a while (more than 5 years I think), have a certain level of Korean (KLPT level 3), and/or have a certain amount of cash invested and can prove your worth to Korean society. The other way is to have an F2 for a while and then apply. I know a few people who had F2s and now have F5s but I haven't heard of anybody getting an F5 straight off the bat.
As I understand it an F5 is a permanent residency visa and an F2 is a spousal visa i.e. you're married to a Korean. So Angels comments, "The immigration logic is to create more F-2-1 visas..." seem to indicate that immigration is either moving into the matchmaking business or simply going to force English speaking foreigners to marry Koreans. I don't know about anybody else, but I don't think immigration is that keen on English teachers so I don't think they are encouraging more of them to come so that can marry Korean women.
His further claims that F2s will leave after "reaping and raping" and that they don't care about this country seem a little misguided to me. F2s and F5s are married to Korean people and therefore have something invested in this country, such as their marriage, and do care somewhat about the country - at least more than E2s. As I see it it's more likely to be E2 people (not all of them: most F2s were once E2s) who come here, try to make as much money as they can in 1 or 2 years (often doing privates illegally) and then take off without a second thought.
I could be wrong about Angel's position as it's sometimes difficult to follow his "rant"
Did you look up the F-2-1 visa before writing that? Did you read the piece properly? You have a knack for reading into things wrongly.I wonder sometimes, I really do.It says some E2s might become F-2-1s, just to earn more money. It says that immigration might like that, to keep the price of English teachers down.Lastly, I suggest that fairplay might be needed, due to a 2030 pop. bomb. Or, do I have to explain it again for diddums?
see- Diddums- urban dictionary section 4- something to do with Cleveland and steam.(lol)
All I'm offereing is my opinion and perspective on what you wrote. I'm not an expert on immgration law and never have stated as such. I've stated that it's "as far as I know". You obviously are an expert on the matter and are privy to the inner workings of an immigration officer's mind.
So, E2s are becoming F-2-1s to get more money. As I said my understanding is that you need to get married to get an F-2-1. If I'm wrong on this please enlighten me with your in depth knowledge of immigration regulations. So, anyway, you're saying that some people are marrying Koreans to get an F-2-1 visa and make more money? That seems like a lot of work, especially if you don't want to get married. I guess that's why you said that people are studying Korean for the visa. I guess you need to speak Korean well to impress the girl before you pop the question. Or are you saying people are getting F-2-1 visas without getting married? I've never heard of someone getting an F-2-1 visa without being married to a Korean. Have you?
Also, do you really think immigration cares about the price of English teachers?
I must admit I didn't read it properly as I don't really like to read stuff that isn't written properly. Reading it closely was frustrating and making my head hurt. As I've said before you have a knack for writing incoherently. If you write coherently perhaps I could understand more clearly what you're saying. I can also see by your last word(s) "did dums" [sic] your level of maturity.
Pot, kettle and black!!!
Do you know anyone who has got an F-2-1 without getting married to a Korean?
Are you implying that my writing is incoherent?
Going off topic Trevor!!
Or are you??
All I'm offereing
"However, there is an old F2 visa has been adjusted to F-2-1.It's funny, how many deluded people are doing voluntary and language courses,etc, to get the F-2-1 visa."
Off topic? These are your words. You stated that people are getting F-2-1 visas by doing language courses?
I'm asking you a direct question to clarify something you put in a post.
Do you know anyone who has received an F-2-1 visa by "doing voluntary and language courses" without getting married to a Korean person?
I've responded directly to comments you've made in your post and added my perspective. I'm just curious about your "everyone" seems to be getting F-2-1s and immigration loves English teachers claims. And your conspiracy theory that immigration is secretly driving down our wages.
"The immigration logic is to create more F-2-1 visas, to create a surplus of labour.This will reduce our chances of making money long term."
Attention this is rumor control.
There are no new restrictions for employment for F2 visa people because there were never old restrictions. F visa is a FAMILY visa it means you are either married to a korean, you are korean(kyopo) or you have been here so long and with the same job that you might as well be married to that job(6-7years) hence being a korean.
That's it, end of story.
I think it's pretty funny to see how English teachers in Korea think the world owes them a living, as if their qualifications made them so fantastic that they should be spitting on anything under 35K an hour, while back home they probably wouldn't even be able to find a job (other than working at the nearest fast-food chain or as a sales assistant.)
I mean, seriously, first of all, all of you spending your time whining on this forum, did you have any qualifications beyond an arts degree before coming to Korea?
And do you have any idea how basic microeconomics work? The fact is that the population of foreign English teachers has grown exponentially during the past couple of years in Korea, and obviously the salaries are going to start stagnating pretty quickly, or even go down, unless the bar is put up and it becomes more difficult to become an English teacher. If that's the case, most of you without any language acquisition knowledge or without a degree in teaching or in linguistics will probably lose your job, go back home and get back to reality with your loser's life.
In Korea the job market is pretty competitive when it comes to Koreans looking for work, and here Koreans with a Masters or even with a Doctorate degree often have difficulty finding a good job with a good salary unless they're at the top of the top. It's old news, but Korea is plagued with a problem of over-education.
So all of you coming here with probably no experience learning any languages other than your own, and with probably no idea how to learn a language anyway (which is shown by the fact that most of you don't speak/read/write Korean past a beginner's level, or any other language for that matter), and expecting to earn what an engineer here would be earning, well fucking wake up. And if all of you are so great and have such amazing credentials, why did you come to Korea to work for a small hagwon in the first place? Finding a job is getting harder and harder not just in Korea but just about everywhere in developed countries, because the piece of the pie is quickly getting divided with countries such as China and Brazil racking up their share, and developed countries are finding it harder and harder to keep up.
All this to say that if you see a job at 20K an hour and you're not happy with it, don't take it and stop whining. If you think you're worth more than that, then you have nothing to worry about. Otherwise get back to earth and start realizing you're already getting more anyway that anything you could dream back home, all the while having lower living expenses.